Rai Cornell 0:01
Welcome to the SOAR Podcast. The place for creative entrepreneurs with limitless dreams and unconventional stories. I’m your host, Rai Hyde Cornell founder and business mentor at Chiron consulting and CEO and senior copywriter at Cornell content marketing. My goal is to bring you stories of what’s possible, so you can never tell yourself that your dreams are impossible

Alright, welcome to today’s episode. We have a very dear friend of mine, Shuly, please introduce yourself and tell our wonderful listeners what you do.

Shulamit Ber Levtov 0:40
Thanks Rai. So my full name is Shulamit Ber Levtov, and I’m the entrepreneurs therapist. My work is with women or women identifying entrepreneurs, solopreneurs, self employed, who want to uplift their mindset, and pilot their emotions. Because as we all know, running a business is an emotional roller coaster. And I support women entrepreneurs and women identifying entrepreneurs in working with the anxiety and isolation that comes from running a business. So that they can be the CEO they want to be and feel the way they want to feel and have the business they really want.

Rai Cornell 1:23
Yeah, there is so much we can talk about in this arena. But I think what’s really, really important, especially for listeners to hear is that the mental health struggles, the anxiety, maybe even if it’s not a full fledged mental health disorder diagnosed, but the mental health struggles that we go through as entrepreneurs, that’s so normal, it’s so common. And tell me what your experience has been like, in helping break down that stigma around mental health, particularly for entrepreneurs, when we are bombarded with these Instagram images of oh, we just live that laptop life. And it’s so easy. And you’re always by the beach, you know, always sipping cocktails and your freedom. Oh my god, that is such bullshit.

Shulamit Ber Levtov 2:16
Yes, I would say I know it’s a trope, but unsubscribe from those people stop it, stop that, back away from the phone. I love I’m a very social person. I love social media, I’m on social media, I value it greatly. And still, I feel those feelings. When I see people and compare myself to them. That’s an exceptionally difficult thing to have happen. So it’s a trope. But it’s also true that the less you expose yourself to people whose material you use to beat yourself up, the better off your mind will be. Yeah.

But also in terms of breaking the stigma to be 100% serious. It’s important, as you have mentioned, and I’m going to say it again and emphasize it to recognize that mental health challenges are inherent in entrepreneurship. Yeah. So the talk, when I went to counseling school, when I got my master’s degree, they would talk a lot about self care. And the idea was that if you took good care of yourself as a therapist, you would never burn out, you would never break down, you would never get vicarious or secondary trauma. Well, I’m here to tell you that that’s mistaken thinking not only for therapists, but also for entrepreneurs. Because the fact is, the work we entrepreneurs do is very hard, very demanding, and often feels very life and death because it’s our financial survival and financial survival ultimately, if you can’t pay your bills, you’re homeless and you don’t eat. So I’m exaggerating to make a point, but the truth is that it’s a very visceral threat response that you feel in your body. And of course, you would feel that given what’s at stake. Yeah. So the very first thing is just to normalize. It’s not, if I do X and Y, my mental health will be fine. No. It’s that, yes. Entrepreneurship is hard. It’s hard on my mental health. It’s an emotional roller coaster. Everybody is affected in this way. So it’s inherent in entrepreneurship. And there’s nothing wrong with me if I’m having a hard time. Yeah, that’s the place to start.

Rai Cornell 4:28
And that’s so important that that piece of I cannot emphasize this enough, the knowing that nothing is wrong with you, you are not broken, you are not uniquely flawed. This is something that we all go through. And, you know, to kind of further this point, I feel like entrepreneurs in particular, are at even greater risk of yes, anxiety and depression, especially because a lot of us get into freelancing and entrepreneurship because of our mental health issues. So I mean, I’ll use myself as an example, but I know many of the clients that I’m working with one on one right now, who I feel like would identify this, and identify with this as well. But for myself, I started freelancing, because I had awful PTSD. I could not hold down a job, I could not wake up in the morning, I could not leave my dorm room, I could not walk across campus to that office, because I was terrified. And all I wanted to do was stay in my little cocoon of safety. And so I whipped out my little black Mac laptop that I had back in the day. And I looked up, okay, how do I earn a living writing online. And that’s how it all started 15 years ago, I feel like that story is so common, but we never talk about it. And so we get into entrepreneurship as a way to sustain ourselves while we deal with these mental health issues. And then being entrepreneurs compounds those mental health issues with new ones. And as you explained, like that very visceral threat of the financial survival of me or later in life, my household is all on my shoulders. Yeah, yeah.

Shulamit Ber Levtov 6:16
I’m having this like, weird feeling like you read my book. And or we’re on the same wavelength about this. The reason, there’s a psychiatrist in the US, I forget his name, but I’m going to, I’ll send the link to the post and he’s Michael Freeman. There it is, but I’ll send you the link anyways and you can post in the show notes. Michael Freeman is a US based psychiatrist and psychologist who did research on entrepreneurship and mental health. And he identified that folks who are entrepreneurs come from a pool of people in the general population who are already predisposed to mental illness, right? To strong emotions, to depression and anxiety. So we have this predisposition. And we come into the field of entrepreneurship. And then entrepreneurship itself is also full of stress and challenge. And so we have that double whammy where we come in predisposed, or for reasons of mental health, as you named, and then we face all the stressors of entrepreneurship. And so it can be like, this is not like signaling doom. It’s truth telling around the reality, which is part of breaking the stigma, right? Yeah. So the fact that we have that double whammy is really important to recognize.

Furthermore, I really like, I’m really appreciating what you said about I did this, I needed to create my own work because I couldn’t work for somebody else. So Nicole Lewis Kieber, she and I have the business therapy, we’ve established the business therapy center together. And her work is on the intersection of trauma and entrepreneurship, and how our traumas show up in how we organize and set up our businesses, and in our relationships to our business. So for me, this is, for you it’s true, for me it’s true. No MFer is going to boss, be the boss of me. Yeah, because as a trauma survivor, I was overpowered, right. And I was powerless and overwhelmed in the situations. And that’s like, that’s not going to be my story anymore. God dammit. So that’s why I’m my own boss. And we also find like in the period of from September to like December ish of 2021, what they call the Great resignation? And what has happened is a lot of, especially women and people of color, and people who aren’t well met in the workplace, have discovered, for example, people of color who experienced microaggressions, multiple times a day in the workplace, that they come home and suddenly feel so much better when they’re away from all that bullshit. Yeah. And then they say, Well, that’s it. I’m not going back to the office. Corporate life is not for me. I’m taking charge of my life. I’m creating the work I want for me and the safe space. So they start their business, right? There are so many ways in which mental health plays a role in why we come into entrepreneurship.

Rai Cornell 9:06
Yeah, yeah. And it’s often not conscious. It’s something that happens subconsciously, where we just know, I’m not going to just lay down and take it, I’m not going to just, you know, quit. Yeah, I’m not going to quit at life. So I have to do something and forging your own path, creating your own way in the world. That becomes really your only option. And there’s something deeply satisfying about that. So even though entrepreneurs are predisposed to mental health challenges, and then the entrepreneurial lifestyle can compound those challenges, like you said, it’s not all doom and gloom. There’s hope. Right?

Shulamit Ber Levtov 9:49
Well, there is hope because since we’ve faced these challenges in life, those challenges have built our resilience muscle. Yeah, right. I like to define, resilience can be a really problematic term. So I want to be really clear about how I’m using it. And what I, because you know, I don’t want to discount the role that systemic and structural harms have occurred to people in differently abled bodies, differently shaped bodies, people of different, we might say different racialized groups that these systemic and structural things have an impact. And at the same time, so I’m going to practice what I preach. I just drew a blank and I’m having a moment of anxiety. So I’m going to say hello to myself and hello to this moment of anxiety. And I’m going to ask for your help to reorient me to where we were going.

Rai Cornell 10:54
Yeah, yeah, no problem. So there has to be hope? Yeah, there has to be, you know, and I think what you’re saying is, in particular, with regard to the word resiliency, we often think that resilient means Oh, bad shit can happen in life or bad shit can happen to me and I’m not supposed to be impacted at all. That’s why

Shulamit Ber Levtov 11:17
I suck it up buttercup,

Rai Cornell 11:18
Right. But that’s not resiliency. Resiliency is accepting that. Okay, these things happened. And I’m going to continue on. I’m going to deal with the impact. Yeah, good.

Shulamit Ber Levtov 11:28
Yes, yes, we are affected. I really like that you’re bringing that up. So thank you for helping me reorient to where I was going. Resilience, I understand that as advancing my projects, despite adversity. So you notice, as you say, there’s no implication that I’m affected or not affected. Because it’s true that we’re going to be affected. That’s what it is to be human. Yeah. Right. And to validate that I’m affected, and to then care for myself, when I’m affected. And at the same time, continue advancing my projects, the things that I’m passionate about that are meaningful to me, even in the face of the adversity that I’m experiencing, right. And the good news is that having done that so many times in our lives, that we have really strong resilience muscles, we know, we have the strength and the skills to be able to advance in the face of adversity. So we come in, and this is part of the work that I do with the women entrepreneurs with whom I work, where we don’t necessarily, can’t necessarily put our fingers on where am I resilient? Where are my eyes, because when the shit hits the fan, and you’re freaking out, we can get really stuck in the negative. And so we, even though our skills and our strengths exist, we can’t see them for the pile of crap in front of us. And so part of my work is helping folks see what their skills are, and how they can bring them to bear on what’s happening now, because we have it in us. Right. And that’s the good news. Yeah,

Rai Cornell 12:55
It’s that emphasis on positive thinking. Like, it’s not saying that all of the bad things out there other things that you’ve experienced don’t exist, or they don’t matter. But it’s okay. But what can we do with that? What can we do in the face of that? What strengths do you have within you, that you can rely on to get you through this tough time?

Shulamit Ber Levtov 13:18
Yes. So there’s an important step that comes before that. And this is where often people run into problems when they’re doing it on their own without support, because what you’re saying is correct. And I agree. And there’s a first step. And the very first step is this acknowledgement and validation, which I’ve been sort of going on about this from the start of our chat. But the fact is, like, I’m holding my hand up, if you imagine that your hand is like your brain, so that the where your arm joins your wrist is the reptilian brain that governs the automatic functions of the nervous system like breathing, heartbeat, digestion, that’s really the reptile, then my thumb is tucked over the middle of the palm of my hand. That’s the midbrain that has the emotion center. And then I’m curling my fingers over top of my thumb to make sort of a fist, and my fingers are the prefrontal cortex. This is what I call our CEO self. Well, when you’re in your emotions, the amygdala gets hot. And what happens when you have a pot with a lid on it and the water boils? What happens?

Your head explodes.

That’s right. We flip our lids. Yeah, our CEO self, the prefrontal cortex goes offline. And because of that, we can’t take in new information. We can’t synthesize information, we can’t make decisions, we can’t problem solve, we can’t access our creativity. So the very, and those are all the skills we need as CEOs to run our business. So the very first thing as I’m showing with my fingers up in my thumb, across my palm of my hand, is to do things that bring the fingers back on, bring the CEO self back online so that the fingers curl back down over the emotion center. So that then your executive functioning comes online and you can address the issue and make the plan and figure out what to do. But the very first step is always some sort of emotional validation or support, so that your CEO self can then come back online and serve you. And so like my die in the ditch belief is based on this neuroscience that we are stronger with support, that one of the most regulating things we can do for our nervous system is to sit with somebody else who’s regulated, somebody else who’s not freaking out about the same thing, in the same way at the same time as you are. Yeah. And when this person comes in, you know, here’s my other little person, my little hand with the lid on and it comes in, and the other one goes, Oh, thank you, and their lid goes on, and then that’s how you’re stronger with support, right. And that can be a therapist, that can be a pastor, that can be your coach, that can be your biz bestie, right? That kind of support is what regulates your nervous system, so that you can come back to your CEO, self, and then go forward.

Rai Cornell 16:10
Yeah, and I love that you bring this idea of support, and you listed all of these great different examples of support. Talk to me about what it’s been like, especially with COVID recently, in the past few years, where we as freelancers tend to isolate ourselves. Yeah, we tend to think this is my business, it’s my life, this is my operation, you know, I want the autonomy over my life. So I have to do it all by myself. And then, you know, whether we intend to or not, we end up realizing that we don’t have anybody around us who really gets it, who understands how challenging this entrepreneurial life can be. So how can people build up this support around them, to have those people who can help regulate them and bring their lid back down? When we’re in this naturally isolating industry, work environment? And now with COVID? Just global climate. Yeah, yeah.

Shulamit Ber Levtov 17:15
Well you know, autonomy is the thing that gets off and gets in our way, as entrepreneurs, right. And self employed folks that our autonomy matters so much to us, and our sense of ourselves as competent, strong, capable, right. And it serves us well, it helps us get where we want to go. But at the same time also isolates us, right. But we’re isolated for good reason, many times, because that helps, like it may be for many of us who are trauma survivors, that the help we got in the past didn’t help, that being vulnerable to others, letting others in was actually hurtful and not safe. And so, you know, I do believe that we are stronger with support. And I want to qualify that by saying that it’s important to discern where you turn for what kind of support because I’m not saying wholesale lie in the street bleeding and hope that the next car that comes along, doesn’t run you over, and there’s a doctor in it, right? If you’re bleeding, you go to ER. Similarly, if you’re feeling super emotional, and you need help with the emotional side of things, you know what friends respond in what way and you can make sure that you know ahead of time, who’s the friend that when I’m upset is the one who responds in a way that’s helpful. And to know, that’s the person I’m going to go to when I need emotional support.

I know that someone’s always going to give me tactical advice. And that’s what I need when, after I’ve had the emotional support. And also to be discerning about what you want to share with whom as well, right, because like at a networking group, you’re not going to bleed all over your networking group, you’re going to come in, as the competent professional you are. But let’s say you have a business bestie, you have a mastermind you have a therapist, you have a women entrepreneurs peer support community, like the one I run, these are the places where you can use your discernment to know this is where I can “bleed” in quotation marks and get the support that I need. So when the shit hits the fan is not the time to try and solve that problem. It’s important to have these supports in place to have identified them. And in fact, that’s the value of having something formal and structured, like a spiritual director or a therapist or a coach, where the meeting is on the books. And all you have to do is show up. Yeah, because otherwise it becomes one more problem you have to solve in the midst of the crisis and it just doesn’t get solved. You just don’t make the phone call because there isn’t time. Yeah. So I’m a real strong believer in having this structure to support yourself so that it’s there when you need it. So you go to therapy or you go to your cooking don’t have any dilemmas because it’s part of building in the ongoing support that you need, so that when there is a dilemma, you just rest in the arms of the support you’ve already created.

Rai Cornell 20:06
Yeah, I think that such an important piece of this is to know that, like you said, it’s not when you’re bleeding, that you make that phone call, or you know, you try to put the supports in place. Just like when we are in a spiral of whether it’s anxiety or depression, or trauma, or whatever it might be. And someone’s saying, Oh, just think positively. Oh, that doesn’t help. That doesn’t work. In the moment you are not attached to that logical problem solving part of your brain. So I can’t hear you. Right. So you have to have those systems in place. Before that happens. Yeah, yeah.

So what would you recommend for someone who, and I’m currently speaking for myself here, but I also know that I tend to attract into my world the people who kind of identify as the lone wolves, the lone Alpha wolves of their own lives? Who don’t have that friend who they can go to for support, or who are always seen as the ones who have all their shit together? Yeah, and who just oh, so and so has this perfect life, she has her own business, she gets to, you know, make her own schedule, she must have all of her shit together. But then we living that life, don’t feel that but we feel this distance from the people who we do consider friends. But we know we can’t exactly go to them with these problems. So what do you recommend if someone is trying to build that support network from scratch?

Shulamit Ber Levtov 21:40
Well, because I work with entrepreneurs, the majority of people I work with are people like you’ve described. They’re the strong, capable, competent people who to whom everyone comes. So they haven’t got that necessarily reciprocal relationship with others. And they find it very difficult, certainly also as entrepreneurs, and aspect of our isolation is what you could call impression management, where we’re concerned that if we’re vulnerable, around how shaky we might be inside, that people are going to doubt our business and then not do business with us. So that’s an aspect a special aspect of the isolation entrepreneurs feel. And so honestly, folks like that they hire people, they hire me, because the container is a container. I’m not going to do business with them, because that would be a dual relationship, right?

So I’m not going to think that their business is not going to rise and fall based on what they tell me. Right? I’m bound by lot. potential victim, it’s not going to have a negative impact on their business. And there’s also not that need for reciprocal, I’m there to hold space for them. So there’s not the social obligation that you feel like you feel with a friend where it has to be mutual. And then, you know, that can be difficult to navigate. And you just want a place where you don’t have to worry about all the social side of things that you can be with someone who’s there 100% for you. Yeah, right. And like to be flat out honest, that’s often because it is so difficult to navigate that for folks who are Type A or kind of like, vulnerability shy. Yeah. That you just hire the professional.

Rai Cornell 23:25
Yeah. And I think, from what I’ve seen, there are a lot of, I see ads all the time in my Facebook feed about like better help, or like they’re all these like, talk to a therapist right away, you know, kind of, but I’ve also heard from ladies that I’ve worked with that some of those apps and mental health, you know, support tools that seem so easily accessible or maybe even very low priced. They actually regret using them, and they feel like it was a bad, almost damaging experience. And I don’t think that that’s true for everybody. But I do think that there is something to be said about the emergence of these tools in this hyper digital remote working sort of environment where HIPAA laws are no longer in play and things like that. So I’m wondering especially from your professional standpoint, what would you recommend if someone were considering working with one of these apps? What would you say look out for as red flags and as green flags

Shulamit Ber Levtov 24:42
So I’m pausing for a moment. What I really value about the proliferation now of new ways to access mental health support is that it reduces the barrier. Yep, right. It eliminates barriers to access. And I live rarely. I live in a place so small that it’s not even a place, right? There’s a hamlet, which is the nearest smallest. And then there’s a village. And then there’s a town and the nearest city is two hours away from me. Wow. And so like this, I live in a world where there are very few resources, until COVID, where then the access, all of a sudden, people had access because of the online stuff. And so just to have it out there, I think is beneficial. What I would recommend is that you look at who’s running it? And what are their qualifications? And what are you, because there’s pure listening, and then there’s therapy. And so pure listening is powerful, but pure listening is pure listening. So be aware that if it’s pure listening, that’s what it is. Check into what training they’ve got to be pure listeners. But also to understand that it’s really just going to be active listening, it’s going to help alleviate your distress, but it’s not necessarily going to further your trajectory of healing. Whereas an app that’s run by licensed therapists is going to have the possibility for you of getting further but here’s the dilemma.

The interpersonal relationship, again, the sitting with somebody who’s nervous system is regulated when you are disregulated, is very powerful. Even if it’s not in person to be able to see one another and perceive the body language. There’s a communication that occurs on an organismic level, over which we have no control, you can’t decide to like or not like somebody, your organism has a role to play in that right. And so that soothing and reassuring relationship, calms again, your nervous system, so that then you can begin to take a look at what’s happening in you, make sense of what’s happening in you, and understand what you need in order to metabolize what’s happened to you and move forward. That’s some heavy lifting that’s, in my opinion, best done with companionship, with human trained, professional, synchronous human to human connection, that’s what will serve you really well.

So, even with the human, you have to check the human out as well. And be sure that at the very least they have the qualifications to practice therapy. And then I would recommend having a first intro, making the first appointment be an interview, where you’re interviewing them, to see if they are the kind of person that feels right to you, that you feel safe and relaxed and connected or safe. I shouldn’t say that, I would prefer to use the word comfortable. That you have a level of comfort with them. Because for trauma survivors, many of us we just never actually feel safe, right, but we can feel some comfort. Right? So that first session is an interview where you check out what does this feel like to be with this person. And that’s how you can evaluate then if you want to continue with them or not. And if the first one doesn’t click, if at first you don’t succeed, try again, try another one or two to see for the rightness of fit human to human, in addition to the qualifications, which you’ve already checked out beforehand.

Rai Cornell 28:32
And it’s okay to say that someone’s not a good fit. I feel like a lot of people get into this people pleasing mode of the therapist has to choose me, or this person that I want to work with has to choose me. No, you are in control, you get to choose them. And if you don’t feel right, if you don’t feel comfortable, you can say, I don’t think this is the right fit for me. But thank you so much for your time.

Shulamit Ber Levtov 28:57
And if you don’t have the courage for that, what people often do in my experience is they book the second appointment and then go home and cancel. And that’s okay, too. That’s 100%. You don’t owe the therapist any explanation, or any reasons. You don’t have to have a confronting conversation. If you’re not comfortable with that, you can play along and then go home and just click cancel on the notice. It’s okay, we’re not going to take it personally, we really value that you would, I would say as a whole the profession values that people know their limits and their boundaries and take good care of themselves. And if that’s what you have to do to do it. Be my guest. Yeah, I give you permission.

Rai Cornell 29:34
So one more thing I wanted to ask you was in between those sessions, whether you’re working with a coach or a therapist, and you have that time on your calendar to actually sit with someone, someone who can really listen to you, who you feel comfortable with, who can help you regulate when you do flip your lid, but in between sessions, what do you wish that and I think this question is, in particular coming from the fact that I see buzzwords all over the place all the time, self care, boundaries, all of those sorts of things. What do you wish that entrepreneurs did? Or what do you wish was different about the entrepreneurial lifestyle to help people take better care of their mental health in between sessions?

Shulamit Ber Levtov 30:23
Well, I just love how you’re setting me up to get on my hobby horse. Because this is a hobby horse of mine. So as entrepreneurs as self employed people, even if we don’t have one, we understand what a business plan is, and what its purpose is. And I would advocate that part of our mental wellness is having a business plan, because that helps the mind relax and stop worrying because it knows where to go and what to do. Every business plan has as a part of it a financial plan and a marketing plan. Right? This is just part of business planning. Yeah. And I advocate that every business plan should have a mental health plan as a part of the business plan. Because just like you have a maintenance plan for your equipment, you are your business’s biggest asset. And if you tank, the business is in jeopardy. So it’s imperative that every business plan have a mental health plan for the business owner. Which means that just like for your business, you identify what are your key performance indicators? What are your lead indicators for your mental health? And what are your lag indicators, that once you’ve established what they are that you establish a regular routine of checking in on your lag and lead indicators, and adjusting, correcting your course as necessary, just like you do with your business goals.

So you can make this part of your conversation with your coach, you can say, Okay, Coach, I have to check in with you as on our agenda every month, I just need to do a mental health check in with you. Right. Or I do it as part of my weekly review. That every week, you know, I do my wins and my losses, lessons learned, what worked, what didn’t work, I look at my numbers. But I also look at my mental health, mental wellness, stress level mood, however you want to conceptualize that. Yeah. And I look at like, from zero to five, where am I doing? You know, five is like, my lid is flipped. And it’s a disaster. And zero is I’m chill, it’s good. And depending on where I am in the scale, I know what kind of intervention I need to make, because I have my plan already. Right. So that like apart from therapy, which is part of your mental health plan, it’s a component of the plan. But it’s so much more than just that. And to develop that plan for yourself, and then follow it and be accountable for it and get support with it. That’s the holistic approach.

Rai Cornell 32:45
Yeah, I love that. And it’s funny, we’re recording this right after business building weekend, December 2021. And we just did that, we did that process last week where we go, okay, here’s all the planning for the business. But what’s the planning for you personally, so that you feel fulfilled, taken care of, happy, healthy, your body, your relationships, all of these things that can often be neglected, when we focus so much on the business. And as entrepreneurs, that’s kind of our default. Our default is always to go with the business with the business. Yeah, I need the clients, I need the revenue, I need this, I need that. That’s just one thing. The business is just one piece of your life, your mental health, your physical health, your relationships, your social health. It matters so much more. So I love that we’re having this conversation. And if people want to check you out, Miss Shuly, where can they find you?

Shulamit Ber Levtov 33:42
Well, I would recommend you start on Instagram. I’m the_entrepreneurs_therapist, and in the bio, you put my link, and that gives you all the things. It leads you to my website, it leads you to the staying sane series of blog posts, which is women entrepreneurs, talking about what mental health means to them, outside the clinical definitions, what they think mental health is for them, and how they care for their mental health. And there’s a free audit call that you can sign up for. I would love to do some of this free audit call work with the listeners. And this is not a sales call. It’s important to say because I’m a therapist, I can’t sell to you in that way. It’s against our code of ethics. So the purpose of this call is to identify what is the very next right step for your mental wellness as an entrepreneur. And it’s not necessarily going to be working with me, because there are so many ways that you can care for your mental health. So the link to the free audit call is in the link in the bio. That’s a place to start.

Rai Cornell 34:42
Perfect. Thank you so much for being here. Shuly. This has been incredibly valuable and something that we don’t talk about nearly enough. So thank you.

Shulamit Ber Levtov 34:50
Thanks, Rai.

Rai Cornell 34:51
Hey, it’s Rai again. Thanks for listening. If you liked this episode, please subscribe and rate us on your favorite podcasting platform. We’re on iTunes, Stitcher, Podcast Addict, YouTube and more and want to be a guest on the show or know someone who has an amazing story of entrepreneurship apply on our website at www.Chironconsulting.us/podcast.